tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post6335506821456243461..comments2024-03-16T01:00:59.945-04:00Comments on Query Shark: #180Janet Reidhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-74208164881412218542010-10-02T12:10:44.577-04:002010-10-02T12:10:44.577-04:00Well, "woman" isn't a developmental ...Well, "woman" isn't a developmental stage. "Kid" is. If you tell me "a woman is commanding a starship!" I don't question it, because I have no reason to doubt the possibility of it. Or at least not if I accept the existence of starships.<br /><br />You could argue that kids are an oppressed group, but that wouldn't address the problem people are having with this query.<br /><br />The problem that people are having with this query is that the author hasn't created a context in which his/her assertion is believable. <br /><br />A good rule for writers: if many people say the same thing about what you've written, you ought to at least ask yourself whether they might be right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-55842809322174575102010-10-02T09:44:04.760-04:002010-10-02T09:44:04.760-04:00Back to the age thing:
First, you're right abo...Back to the age thing:<br />First, you're right about the post-it's, I read it somewhere long ago and didn't check it before I said it. Tsk, tsk. However, a teenager did invent earmuffs, which are also pretty important. If you have any doubts about that, ask your ears.<br /><br />Second, although it is true that Daniel Radcliffe is not necessarily the best actor, he still has been quite successful, if you look at it from a financial and fame-wise view. Anyway, one could say many people are successful that way, but it doesn't mean they're good at what they do. Quite a bit is luck.<br /><br />That ties into Third, it is true that all those kids had special circumstances. However, which adults that come to power <i>don't</i> have any? The Zhou Dynasty rose to power through the "Mandate of Heaven" which is divine authority. I believe L. Bowser made a point about Alexander and Tut because of that, but I don't think that goes only for kids. Anyway, younger and younger people are becoming more and more accomplished. Young teenagers are making loads of money from computer programming, making aps, and doing all sorts of other things that were previously considered as limited to adults. With this sci-fi, which I assume takes place in the future, it is quite possible that this rise of youth power has gone even further. It's certainly possible: take women's rights. They went from having no power to having some, and kept rising. Now, there's been a female prime minister of the UK, and a woman came very close to being president of the USA. If women can move transend their reptuation as uesless, lower, or deformed men (as Aristotle seemed to think they were), why can't kids?wizardonskis22https://www.blogger.com/profile/06685192078420924575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-14153305553957463342010-10-01T14:25:44.043-04:002010-10-01T14:25:44.043-04:00@nn Angel, especially
I have no idea what the pro...@nn Angel, especially<br /><br />I have no idea what the problem is with the alien race's name. I don't live in an area that uses it or anything like it as slang, and I don't think it being close to a real name is a good reason to change it. Good lord, get over it. How do you feel when you run across someone in a book who has your ACTUAL name, doing something bad or evil? We don't get to put those kinds of restrictions on authors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-24081071012926693762010-10-01T14:22:54.106-04:002010-10-01T14:22:54.106-04:00Sigh-
I, too, miss Douglas Adams. Back when I was...Sigh-<br />I, too, miss Douglas Adams. Back when I was super poor, he was the only author I would buy new and in hardback.JD Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538238148744690853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-37079881938274715502010-10-01T11:07:54.273-04:002010-10-01T11:07:54.273-04:00Jo-Ann,
Am devoutly hoping that in your part of t...Jo-Ann,<br /><br />Am devoutly hoping that in your part of the world kindergarten classes do not sing "I'm a little teapot/Short and stout/This is my handle, this is my spout".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-22100445311893617022010-10-01T08:32:27.732-04:002010-10-01T08:32:27.732-04:00Janet,
If it were written the other way, that at ...Janet,<br /><br />If it were written the other way, that at 18 she is the oldest spaceship captain, would you still look for more context in the query pointing to the person having built a world where that was possible, i.e. a sentence around backstory? Or would you look for the rest of the query to hang together and then read pages to see if it worked?L. Bowserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661558231136130062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-81417748384026847212010-09-30T21:23:56.138-04:002010-09-30T21:23:56.138-04:00I agree with the Shark - have a think about the &q...I agree with the Shark - have a think about the "Teagun" name. It inspires some unfortunate mental imagery. Where I come from, it's not uncommon for some people refer to a small boy's private bits as a "teapot", particularly when potty-training him. So I think you can see where I'm going with Teagun thing? Urgh!<br /><br />Mind you, if the writer is following in the footsteps of the (much missed) Douglas Adams, perhaps some silly alien race names are appropriate? Think of "Slartibardfast", "Vroomfondel" and "Magikthies" to name a few. <br /><br />It's been ages since a good comedy SciFi book/series has hit the shelves - how about it, #180?Jo-Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15705983780352542190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-30407079933281237542010-09-30T12:56:36.374-04:002010-09-30T12:56:36.374-04:00I strongly agree with the Shark about renaming the...I strongly agree with the Shark about renaming the Teagun alien race, probably because, replace the u with an e and you have my first name (pronunciation I'm guessing is the same). Actually, the spelling and pronunciation wouldn't be far off from the various forms of the name and it's apparently becoming more popular depending on where you're from. Either way, it might be best to pick a new name for them. On a personal level, I don't want my name associated with a villianous sounding race. On a more practical level, the juxtaposition of the two words makes me think they're prim, drink tea, and gun happy (or the other thought that crossed my mind was a big intimidating looking wuss with a gun).Teagenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10595226597188375674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-76537036964961128402010-09-30T12:32:03.714-04:002010-09-30T12:32:03.714-04:00Something about this reminds me of Jack Vance. No...Something about this reminds me of Jack Vance. Now there is some fast-paced science fiction mystery writing for you! Totally addictive. If the author hasn't read Vance, I would totally recommend it. Heck, if anyone on this blog hasn't read Vance, I would recommend it.JD Hornhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05538238148744690853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-80290036390134534432010-09-30T11:59:10.076-04:002010-09-30T11:59:10.076-04:00King Tut? He was nothing but a member of the Lucky...King Tut? He was nothing but a member of the Lucky Sperm Club -- or the Unlucky Sperm Club. He was apparently an inbred weakling and his reign was undistinguished.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-59656124555467612362010-09-30T10:51:14.096-04:002010-09-30T10:51:14.096-04:00All the comments about age got me looking at Ender...All the comments about age got me looking at Ender's Game again (what a great book!).<br /><br />But it also made me think: mentioning the age the OTHER way would be truly intriguing: at 18, she's the OLDEST space ship commander.<br /><br />That would certainly pique my interest in reading more.Janet Reidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00615380335938685231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-87153090744104158612010-09-30T10:16:44.935-04:002010-09-30T10:16:44.935-04:00As someone who has served in the Navy, I cannot se...As someone who has served in the Navy, I cannot see someone commanding a ship without at least a decade of experience as a naval officer behind them, and that would still have to be an extraordinary situation. Reading that an 18-year-old is commanding a spaceship causes me to immediately stop reading the query.College Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11090279986552451411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-16314583433315195312010-09-30T10:04:50.988-04:002010-09-30T10:04:50.988-04:00I'll deny that Daniel Radcliffe is a decent ac...<i>I'll</i> deny that Daniel Radcliffe is a decent actor.<br /><br />But all this arguing about what an 18-year-old can and can't do simply underscores the point: if the author had convinced us, we wouldn't be having this discussion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-25074619155667650052010-09-30T09:40:14.906-04:002010-09-30T09:40:14.906-04:00Wizrdonskis22:
You give lots of examples where ag...Wizrdonskis22:<br /><br />You give lots of examples where age didn't matter, but I want you to look at them and see how they are different from what was in this query.<br /><br />First Peter and Val Wiggins. Orson Scott Card did a masterful job creating a world where power at such an age was possible. But there was an absolute external force involved, namely the war with the buggers. To ignore that is to ignore the exact point I was making. You can violate an age norm when you create the context for why it is possible. The author clearly has not done that with this query.<br /><br />Alexander the Great and King Tut are also great examples of this. They ascended to rule through divine right. Not because they were the most qualified people for the job. In fact, one could argue that Alexander the Great, for all his accomplishments, really stood on the shoulders of his father who had build the Macedonian army into one of the most well organized and finely tuned fighting machines in the world. Did he need ability to accomplish what he did. Yes. But let's not pretend for one second that his ascension to leadership had anything to do with him. It was the societal expectation. Him not ascending would have been the shock.<br /><br />A 10-year old girl did not invent sticky notes. They were invented by 3-M scientist Art Fry. A 10 year-old girl would not have even had access to the special glue necessary to create them.<br /><br />And while I will not deny that Daniel Radcliffe is a decent actor, you could have put just about anyone decent in the role of Harry Potter and had them succeed. And let's face it having a 20 year-old play a 12 year-old boy would have been ridiculous. In his case, age would have been a hinderance to success. Again, context of the world his success happened in. Being too old would have violated the norm in this case.<br /><br /><br />S.E. Hinton and Chris Paolini were both young when they published. I'm not aware of this being a problem so long as they write well. There is no societal norm that says they can't be a great writer when they're young. <br /><br />Here's one other thing to think about. Of all the real people you mentioned, why do we not have trouble suspending disbelief around their accomplishments? Because they actually happened. You don't have to suspend disbelief because it's history.<br /><br />If I write a novel where a 44 year-<br />old takes power of a European nation in the 1930's and makes a real bid at controlling the whole of Europe, people would have no problem because Hitler did that. If I wrote the same novel and substituted an 18 year-old boy, I would lose a lot of people immediately unless I provided some context as to why this was even possible.<br /><br />I don't dispute that young people can do great things, or that they have done great things. They do all the time. But looking at the context in which they do it in is critical. In my opinion, the author has not done that.L. Bowserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661558231136130062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-9414885825906418852010-09-29T22:37:27.598-04:002010-09-29T22:37:27.598-04:00About the age thing.
a of all, the closer one is t...About the age thing.<br />a of all, the closer one is to 18, the older it seems. For a 20-year-old or sixteen, eighteen seems pretty old. However, to someone who has reached the respectable forties or so, I imagine 18 would seem pretty young. Just food for thought.<br />b of all, 18-year-olds often can do far more than people expect. Take Peter Wiggin (or Val) for example. They were 11, 12, whatever. Not even 13! And already they began to affect the world using the nets. By the time Peter was 14 or so, he was one of the most influential figures of the time, via Locke, and nobody had a problem with it until, in Shadow of the Hegemon, he lets people know. Then there are others. Alexander the Great. King Tut. Daniel Radcliffe. There are so many people who stood out long before they were 18.<br />Of all the potential problems with this story/query, I feel that age is the least worrisome. After all, Christopher Paolini was writing the Eragon books since he was 15 ish and S.E. Hinton wrote Outsiders at 15, published at 16. It was a 10 year old girl who invented the first sticky notes, and think of the state of society today if we didn't have Post-its!<br />I didn't mean to go on a rant or anything, but youth have the power to do almost anything, as long as they set their mind to it.wizardonskis22https://www.blogger.com/profile/06685192078420924575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-17638058518408186082010-09-29T11:34:45.044-04:002010-09-29T11:34:45.044-04:00Agreed.
I won't say youth in a position of p...Agreed. <br /><br />I won't say youth in a position of power is impossible. However, the query failed to justify it. <br /><br />This could be corrected in the query by either leaving the age question by the wayside (which, if this isn't YA may be best) or giving us more reason to find it reasonable.Stephanie Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772217449161603561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-32783734166877306562010-09-29T08:59:39.857-04:002010-09-29T08:59:39.857-04:00Military(or maybe government) ship is inferred by ...Military(or maybe government) ship is inferred by the military title of Commander. Military may not be stated explicitly, but it is implied by the author's choice of language describing her position.<br /><br />As far as regression to primitive times in science fiction and colonies, I agree this happens. But typically there is some precipitating event. Colonies revert when there is a hardship the current leadership and societal structure can't handle, or there is a temporary power vaccuum due to death. In times of peace and prosperity, societies rarely violate the social norms they operate by. They also tend to revert back to societal norms once that crisis has passed.<br /><br />There is no indication in this query that something like this has happened. In fact, just the opposite. Every indication is that things must be good on Earth. They are launching exploration missions, something that is unexpected during a crisis. Another indication is the "youngest ever" designation. This fact is not surprising when things are going poorly for a society because it has become a temporary norm if not necessity. The designation would not be special.<br /><br />As far as comparing this to young people and their IT businesses, I find this a difficult comparison. When you are appointed the commander of a ship someone else chose you to lead it. And the people you are leading are sworn to follow those above you, and therefore you by proxy. And that command above will not do things that may violate that trust, lest the lose it. Contrast that with starting a company. When you start a company you chose to lead. And people chose to follow you. Some for money, some for purpose. But they also do so knowing they can leave at any time. So while they seem similar on the surface, they are vastly different around the subject of personal choice and at whose discretion you lead.<br /><br />I am not saying that her worlds have to conform to specific norms. They don't. But there needs to be an indication in the setup why the violation of expectations are possible. Especially if you are starting with Earth, becasue there are pre-conceived notions. Every science fiction story I have read that violates some common societal norm has done this. If you want me to suspend my disbelief at the possibility that an 18 year old has been given the keys to the flag ship, then tell me why. Otherwise you've lost me because I believe you have not spent enough time world-building. Others are free to have a different standard.L. Bowserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661558231136130062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-55231666853925101552010-09-28T19:57:44.047-04:002010-09-28T19:57:44.047-04:00I agree with the points that have been raised abou...I agree with the points that have been raised about Ender's Game and about the unlikelihood of attaining military leadership at age 18. What it all comes down to is this.<br /><br />Anything at all is possible in fiction (and Ender's Game's a good example) as long as you <i>convince us it happened</i>. We all know fiction has to be more believable than reality, because reality's got nothing to prove.<br /><br />What the writer hasn't done, at least in the query, is convince us it happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-15695230657597909592010-09-28T19:35:41.532-04:002010-09-28T19:35:41.532-04:00One thing that I noticed about science fiction is ...One thing that I noticed about science fiction is that it is even more competitive to get published than other genres. What you do with this observation is up to you.College Boyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11090279986552451411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-70046766462633204892010-09-28T19:03:29.742-04:002010-09-28T19:03:29.742-04:00Odd. Where does the query say she's military?
...Odd. Where does the query say she's military?<br /><br />It might also be noted that, in science fiction and colonies in general, regression to a far more primitive time are common. <br /><br />I'm not defending the specifics of this query here. I don't have enough information to do so. I'm defending the notion that age does not preclude capability or responsibility. The fact that there are any examples of capable teenagers in history indicates that youth can do incredible things.<br /><br />Are there societies (including the one we have)where power for the youth is all but impossible? Yes. But that doesn't mean it's better. And there quite a few "children" who have started IT businesses that have made them millionaires while still in their youth. A fair comparison to the forms of success available in days gone by, in my opinion.<br /><br />I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm pointing out that the restrictions on the success of youth are as much a matter of society as they are a reflection on teenagers. One of the nice things about science fiction is that we can use it to focus on the potential of people adjusting the society as we require.Stephanie Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772217449161603561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-25681897148985472042010-09-28T17:37:19.665-04:002010-09-28T17:37:19.665-04:00Some of the rest of the world does expect more of ...Some of the rest of the world does expect more of their young people. But this "more" rarely includes prominently and nationally recognized leadership positions. I agree that it's not "impossible" for a great military leader to rise up at this age, though I think citing examples from hundreds or thousands of years ago does not help your case. We're talking about something that takes place in the future, not the past. The most relevant context would be near the present day. <br /><br />There are many reasons that someone of Alexander the Great, Joan of Arc or Henry V age could do what is almost unthinkable today. First, as was mentioned, two were aristocracy. They were born to the right parents who died young enough for them to take the reigns of the kingdom and military. Second, Joan of Arc's rise to leadership had little to do with her military abilities. Rather, she was able to convince the right people she was chosen by God (and therefore could not fail.) Third, at the time all those happened, the average life span was mid thirties or less. If you waited until the ages we do today to develop and appoint military leadership, you would have had chaos. Soldiers and generals were selected and trained from a young age. By the time you were 18-20 you may have had 8 years of military training and service under your belt. Elder statesmen as we know them today, were a rarity. An old soldier was twenty-five to thirty. <br /><br />You'll be hard pressed to find a modern example of military leadership ascension on this scale, short of a battlefield promotion (which is typically temporary.) Almost every military organization in the world today has a official minimum age of enlistment of 17-18. All notable deviations from this (of which there are two or three) are third world countries. I'm not saying this couldn't change in the future, but in my opinion the circumstances that would allow the world to move in that direction would have to be part of the world building.L. Bowserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01661558231136130062noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-35734812981765277362010-09-28T11:16:23.728-04:002010-09-28T11:16:23.728-04:00Success at early age doesn't have to be likely...Success at early age doesn't have to be likely. It only has to be plausible. Lots of leaders gained the throne at an early age. But conquering most of the world before thirty - that takes someone extraordinary. The harder success is at an early age, the more impressive it is to do it. <br /><br />My point is just that arguing the impossibility in this day and age is misleading. Science fiction is a way of building heroes as important or impressive as any in the past. In this case, Keri could be a prodigy or could have inherited her command (as a member of a shipping family, for instance, a la the Liaden universe).<br /><br />Unfortunately, the query didn't build on that to tell us what makes her extraordinary other than her racial mixture. It's not enough that someone is in an extraordinary position - to be interesting, we need to understand why.Stephanie Barrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17772217449161603561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-14827972514038001832010-09-28T10:14:53.328-04:002010-09-28T10:14:53.328-04:00I don't really have a comment for #180. Gettin...I don't really have a comment for #180. Getting here after the first twenty-five posts, I can hardly add constructively to what others have already said of the query.<br /><br />However, I do want to congratulate Janet for her recognition by P&E and add this. Though her service and commitment to the writing community through this blog is undeniably awesome, additional congratulations are also in order. <br /><br />To you.<br /><br />I am talking about those of you who post regularly on QS. Your observations, comments and critiques continue to blow me away. They are intelligent, insightful (if not sometimes brutal) and always dead on. The Shark’s selfless dedication notwithstanding, I believe the participation and contributions of her sharkettes is what puts this blog over the top.<br /><br />So, in recognition to Janet and all of you, I say congratulations for a job well done.<br /><br />PS #180, take all the advice you get here to heart, and thanks for the white space.dana e donovanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09018257326494278111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-63728290559575331302010-09-28T08:21:51.230-04:002010-09-28T08:21:51.230-04:00What Adam said--you can write wahtever you want, s...What Adam said--you can write wahtever you want, so long as you can make it believable. That can be hard to do in the context of a 250 word query letter, of course, so maybe it might be better to say "Keri is the youngest-ever captain blah blah blah" and leave out the actual figure, just to avoid the "yeah, right" reaction that happens when we see the '18'.Marissa Doylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11248406475808085694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4812909700950069050.post-81364936778200670962010-09-28T07:09:08.552-04:002010-09-28T07:09:08.552-04:00I'm joining in with the people who thought of ...I'm joining in with the people who thought of the original Mark Sue fanfiction, "A Trekkie's Tale" upon reading this query - not only because of the "youngest commander ever" line, but also because the mix of her two races makes her extra special. (The original Mary Sue reveals herself to be part Vulcan.) <br /><br />Ender's Game had quite a different world - the government was purposefully seeking out children and Ender was bred to be a genius. He's got a whole host of problems, not the least of which is that he can get insanely violent. He also spends a decent chunk of the book wanting nothing to do with the games at all. <br /><br />Contrast that to a young commander who gains authority in an adult world simply because she is just that good. Who, as far as we can tell, has no personal struggles other than she's even more special than she thought she was. That's a Mary Sue. <br /><br />Now, Keri may have much more depth than that, but it's not coming through in this query for me, which means it may not be coming through in the pages either. As a reader, I want to read about a character that has real flaws and hard choices to make. If you can create a character I care about, I'll read just about anything.Katrina S. Foresthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00782678919561852444noreply@blogger.com